The Forum of Benfleet Running Club

Karl C

We regularly do the BLEEP TEST with the children, and I have recently done the COOPER TEST with a couple of athletes at the track.

These monitor the development of the athlete's aerobic endurance and to obtain an estimate of their VO2max

Is there enough interest to run this test (on a regular basis monthly/6 weekly) for club members to gauge their progress..??

Let me know and I am happy to collate the results.

COOPER test is easy to record on the Track, but the bleep test can be done anywhere.

mikemoreton · Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:04 pm Post subject:

I'm in

mike s · #1 Joined: 29 Jan 2008 Posts: 37 Location: Rayleigh

Yep I like doing these they do give you a direct measure of progress.

Pammie · #3 Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 385

If i'm not working whenever you hold it i'll be there
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I'll put something interesting here when i've thought of something, in the meantime heres some music.

Lee O · #3 Joined: 30 Aug 2006 Posts: 385 Location: Canvey Island

Is this something to do with your Heart then??

To make sure it dont Blow

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My mind says I am still 19 and in My Prime......Body Suggests Otherwise!!!!!!

Karl C · Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject:

Fitness can be measured by the volume of oxygen you can consume while exercising at your maximum capacity. VO2max is the maximum amount of oxygen in millilitres, one can use in one minute per kilogram of body weight. Those who are fit have higher VO2max values and can exercise more intensely than those who are not as well conditioned. Numerous studies show that you can increase your VO2max by working out at an intensity that raises your heart rate to between 65 and 85% of its maximum for at least 20 minutes three to five times a week. Once you know your current VO2max (from testing or a recent race) you can then ensure you tailor your training accordingly. Regular checks show if your training is actually working !

Ian J · #2 Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 267 Location: Rayleigh

Another way to prove how unfit I am, deep joy

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Whad'ya mean "Run fat boy, run"? I AM running!

Ian J · #2 Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 267 Location: Rayleigh

Beep Beep, as long as the juniors don't pick on me being so slow

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Whad'ya mean "Run fat boy, run"? I AM running!

Jez · #2 Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 291 Location: Eastwood

Here is a list of VO2max scores (in ml/kg/min) that have been recorded for a variety of athletes in a range of sports. The accuracy of these values may vary, as the scores achieved may depend of the quality of the equipment used, the calibration of the equipment, and the testing protocols used. However, these values still provide an interesting list for comparison and discussion.

96.0 Espen Harald BjerkeNorwegian cross country skier, in 2005 (7.3 liter/min). article
96.0 Bjørn Dæhlie, Norwegian cross country skier (another source has him recording a 90 ml/kg/min)

92.5 Greg LeMond, professional cyclist
92.0 Matt Carpenter, Pikes Peak marathon course record holder
92.0 Tore Ruud Hofstad, Norwegian cross country skier, in 2005
91.0 Harri Kirvesniem, Finnish cross country skier

88.0 Miguel Indurain, professional cyclist
87.4 Marius Bakken, Norwegian 5k record holder
85.0 Dave Bedford, 10k world record
85.0 John Ngugi World XC Champion
84.4 Steve Prefontaine, US runner
84.0 Lance Armstrong, professional cyclist
82.7 Gary Tuttle, US runner
82.0 Kip Keino, Olympic 1500 champion
81.1 Craig Virgin, twice World cross country champ
81.0 Jim Ryun, US miler WR holder
80.1 Steve Scott, US miler 3:47
78.6 Joan Benoit, 1984 Olympic Marathon Champion
78.5 Bill Rodgers, 2:09:27 marathoner
77.4 Don Kardong, 2:11:15 marathoner
77.0 Sebastian Coe. WR mile, 1500
76.6 John Landy, WR miler
76.0 Alberto Salazar, 2:08:51 marathoner
74.3 Amby Burfoot, US marathoner
74.4 Johnny Halberstadt, 2:11:44 marathoner
74.2 Kenny Moore, US marathoner 2:11:36
73.5 Grete Waitz, Norwegian Marathon runner/10K runner
73.3 Bruce Fordyce ultramarathoner
73.0 Buddy Edelen, 2:14:28 world record marathoner (1963)
73.0 Jeff Galloway, US Runner
72.8 Jarmila Krotochvilova, Czech Olympian 400M/800M winner
72.3 Peter Snell, Olympic champion
72.0 Zithulele Sinqe, 2:08:05 marathoner
71.3 Frank Shorter, US Olympic Marathon winner
71.2 Ingrid Kristiansen, ex-Marathon World Record Holder
71.0 Paula Ivan, Russian Olympic 1500M Record Holder
70.3 Willie Mtolo, 2:08:15 marathoner
69.7 Derek Clayton, Australian ex-Marathon World Record holder 2:08:35
67.2 Rosa Mota, Marathon runner

->
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Jez

www.justjez.co.uk

Karl C · Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject:

42.14 ml/kg/min Karl Cadman professional idiot

Ian J · #2 Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 267 Location: Rayleigh

Estimate from 10K time = 29.79 ml/kg/min or to put it another way for a Male 40-49 very poor

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Whad'ya mean "Run fat boy, run"? I AM running!

mikemoreton · Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:53 am Post subject:

Think I will stay quiet over this, but mine is around 30

Not bad for a ..................... (fill in the space to suit)

MM2

Lucycat · Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:44 pm Post subject:

But... you have to actually measure the oxygen that goes in and comes out for a result ie on a treadmill with a "gas mask" on your face measuring the oxygen.

Running speed and therefore performance in a bleep type test or using your 10K time are only indicators of VO2 max as other factors that influence how fast you run such as efficiency, power to weight ratio (!!!), lactate tolerance etc.

A cross country skier wouldnt necessarily be a crackin runner but could have a high VO2 max. Probably you could be Redgrave or Pinsent and have a great test result but still be a 4-5 hour marathon runner. Only way to know is to book yourself in for a test not to determine it.

So from that you do lots of things to make yourself quicker ie:-
Improve power to weight ratio - lose weight; do weights at gym or both!!
Improve neural development and muscle power - do plyometrics and drills;
Improve lactate tolerance - do lactate tolerance training
Improve coordination - drills, plyometrics, practice
Improve flexibility so legs and muscles have better range of motion and efficiently - ie stretch go to yoga
and arrange for better genetics in your next life....

So the list goes on, my point is VO2 max willl help a lot but so do other things and it may be easier to work on the others; or it may not...
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Lucy and Paddy

Karl C · Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject:

Lucy, you are absolutely right, there are endless tests that can be done to record/monitor fitness.

These are just a couple that we can all do.

Once we record these figures, and know where we are starting from we can begin to do a combination of

"lose weight; do plyometrics and drills; do lactate tolerance training;drills, plyometrics; practice improve flexibility "

and then re-test regularly to see if any/all of this has done any good !

Plus, my gas mask is at the cleaners (long story)

Lee O · #3 Joined: 30 Aug 2006 Posts: 385 Location: Canvey Island

V02Max sounds like a Sports Drink!!!!
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My mind says I am still 19 and in My Prime......Body Suggests Otherwise!!!!!!

Lucycat · Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject:

You are right about the combination mattering.

I noticed (on one of the rare occasions I go to a club night) last night a bit of a haphazard approach to the hills some sprinters and walkers; some that tackled it as one continuous effort; some in betweeners.

In contrast at the pool the fairly new coach is getting very teccy with the kids I swim with nowadays (they dont notice; I do) and we do a combination of work aimed to tackle all the bases although as they are mainly distance swimmers theres a lot of middle of the range distance sets - the equivelent of a long track set, the ballbreaker etc to improve VO2 max. Just struck me last night that nobody really knew what they were doing and why - ie a testing endurance set or a power based hill effort. I fancied a bit of a change from base training for paris so it was a bit pointless but as your a coach Ill leave it with you!!!
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Lucy and Paddy

Karl C · Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject:

Again, I agree the Hills session is only beneficial if it is done for a purpose and at the right pace/rest intervals. At least with a rough starting Vo2max (VDOT) you can suggest a pace, and monitor if it is too fast or slow.

By using standard values for running economy and by having a timed Performance over at least one running distance, a fitness ("VDOT") value can be assigned to you for training and race-prediction purposes. Training at VDOT paces based on actual performance will get you to race faster...and subsequently improve your VDOT.

A lot of us (me included) have been doing the hill/effort sessions for years and have gained no benefit from it because we did it too slow/too fast/not enough recovery/too much recovery.

Knowledge and experience are crucial, so you don't need to be a coach to impart or use it.
Always good to get other people's feedback. especially from other training sessions.

bobby · #2 Joined: 06 Apr 2008 Posts: 257

With 90 people being in the club on Tuesday there are obviously a lot of different groups doing the session. Not everybody wants to get as technical as some and are motivated by doing something they have not done before and getting a sense of achievement in doing t hat. With such a varied membership not everybody is there for the same reasns. But hopefully they all benefit in different ways..

mikemoreton · Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject:

I still went home very tired

mikey · Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject:

I have to agree with Bobby about Thursday’s session

We had 90+ members on the circuits & 4 coaches !

Ian took some of the juniors around , and Kevin took his fast track group

That left 80 odd runners between Bobby & myself

Its fair to say that out of that 80 not all of them wanted to be coached, but most could have done with some guidance.

Due to the numbers we split the session over 2 hill circuits, with Ian explaining the session on one hill, whilst I explained at the start of the other hill.

I can’t comment on Ian’s explanation, but I can assure you that before we started on my hill, I gave an explanation of the route, safety hazards, suggested group sizes, number of efforts, and the fact that I wanted everyone to run right though to the end of the effort.

ie - Up the hill turning left, and along the gentle incline to the top of Mill Hill, effectively making it an ( Hill / Endurance session )

Obviously for most of the people there I was wasting my time, as they sprinted up the hill, then walked part or all of the top section !!

But for some I hope my explanation was of help, and whenever I caught someone walking I certainly encouraged them to work through to the end.

With so many on the circuit at one time I couldn’t monitor everyone ( except maybe to be a static coach standing at the top of the initial hill ), but even coaches have the right to work themselves occasionally.

What we really need is non coaches to step up and help organize / control groups
I’m lucky in that Pete Watson, and Kevin Massey often help out with my group. ( which can get up to 25+ on some nights )

We need more members like them

This is going to be the subject of a coaches / interested parties meeting in the near future

I would encourage anyone with a view point to attend, so that we can get the most out of club nights in the future

mikey · Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject:

Back to VO2 monitoring :

I nearly went for a proper VO2 assessment ( face mask and everything ), as part of my Tri training.

Didn’t go through with it in the end due to the cost …
Not so much for the initial assessment, but because if you’re going to go for that kind of accuracy you really need to be monitored regularly.

A one off VO2 reading is just a snap shot for that particular day
You need multiple readings over a period of time to asses any trends.

That’s why I would favor “In-House” testing such as heart rate monitors / bleep tests

By using these you can still determine the physiological effects of your training, but at a fraction of the cost !!

Mind you , you won’t be able to quote a fancy VO2 figure next time the conversation comes up down the pub !!

david thomson · #2 Joined: 20 Oct 2006 Posts: 264 Location: thundersley

its very interesting that list and sort of shows that just vo2 max itself isnt everything
dahlie is an all time legend yet bjerke though ive heard of i cant remember seeing him do well in any races and hes since recorded a lower score.

http://www.fasterskier.com/training2589.html
i wonder what the figures for the top current kenyan/ethiopian runners would score ?

id be interested karl , i did a beep test when i was young and it was vv hard , cant remember what the score was though.
i use vdot for my training as per jack daniels book (one for mike) and mcmillans website , though thats a bit of guesswork as im constantly getting quicker.
i think group training is a nightmare to sort out so everyone can train properly. luckily when i was good my coach only had me and his son to look after so it was a doddle. but for larger groups i dont know how you do it.

david thomson · #2 Joined: 20 Oct 2006 Posts: 264 Location: thundersley

polar do a feature called ownindex with their hrms

Stress Head · #1 Joined: 08 Oct 2006 Posts: 120 Location: Benfleet

5 coaches - thanks Mike!

The majority of the group I had with me had never done a hill session before and had an enormous sense of achievement at the end, despite having to walk the recovery phase.

These will be the same people in a month or so who will have the confidence and ability to move up to the 25+ group as their strength both physically and mentally will have improved.

So peeps, if you pass someone walking down from the top of a hill have a think about how much effort and guts it has taken for them to get up there in the first place!!

david thomson · #2 Joined: 20 Oct 2006 Posts: 264 Location: thundersley

theres no shame in walking , depends on the effort put in and or what the training plan is

mikey · Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject:

Sorry Sarah

So busy down the club that night … Didn’t notice you !!!

Would defiantly counted you if I had …
So that was 3 coaches for the remaining 80+ runners

Still not a good ratio

( unless I missed anyone else of course ! )

Karl C · Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject:

Exactly, everyone needs to do the hill session at their recommended pace and recovery pace.
If they are newby then walking the recovery is essential.

(Just a bit miffed I missed the session now, sounded like a great social gathering, but will tell Mikey I was there - he'll never know)

mikey · Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject:

Karl

This of course is true …
Didn’t even notice you when you ran with my group, during your coach mentoring !!

Karl C · Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject:

that's cos I have lost so much weight

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

Interesting comments.

I think there are a lot of us who are in a bit of a no-mans land where there is no coach with us but we are fairly disciplined at doing the efforts properly, and only cheating ourselves if we don't - only fair that the coaching is concentrated on the newer members i think, and those who are not over-ambitious but still want to work hard.

Important to listen carefully to Ian as to what you should be trying to do I find....don't go too mad on the first effort, try and work hard but do them evenly, etc

Lucycat · Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:56 pm Post subject:

I remember reading about Liz McColgan who used to do as one of her key sessions an 800 metre hill effort and her coach (Greta Weitz I think!) would drive her from the top to the bottom. ie no harm in walking!
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Lucy and Paddy

Mike Mason · #7 Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 1055 Location: Hockley

I am sure their will be moans from most of you but....if you want an interval session that you can't cheat or hold back on get on a treadmill....
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'sometimes I am running so fast it appears that rocks and trees are standing still......' 'I may be slow, but you are ugly and I can train harder.' '90% is mental, the other half is physical'it's going to get a lot worse, before it gets worse'.

Karl C · Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:09 pm Post subject:

Just wanted to restart this thread with the purpose of organising a BLEEP TEST over the recreation ground once the evenings get lighter. If anyone wants to come down on a Tuesday evening tween 6pm and 7pm they could always join in with the kids version (but be warned most may beat you!)

For all those not running marathons in April we could make one of the last 2 Tuesdays.
I would like to run this monthly, so would that timing fit in with some people if we planned it in for 6.30pm ish ?

If not maybe a Sunday morning.....

Also, it would be good to get to the track for a monthly COOPER TEST

Any thoughts..??

mikemoreton · Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:40 pm Post subject:

Count me in!

Except, ALL the kids will beat me.