The Forum of Benfleet Running Club

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

to go from 8 minute miling (or slightly better) to 6 minute miling or better ??

It might not happen, it might be totally over-ambitious, so honest answers please especially if you've been there and done it....

Factors:
40 year old male.
Been running 5 months.

It's seeing Stacy do 5.40 minute mile races and all the other quick runners zipping past when I'm slogging round that has me wondering....

mikemoreton · Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:04 am Post subject:

For your info:
46 year old male started running in August 2006 weighing over 18 stone. Need to exercise when I found myself out of breath walking upstairs.
Started doing brisk walks for 30 minutes and completed my first 3 mile 'jog' Mid Sept in around 45 minutes (15 minute miling). Ok I know a snail passed me, but thats another thing. After much coaching from one of the clubs coaches and personal trainer, I competed the London Marathon in April 2007 in 7 hours. 16 minute miling overall, in the hottest London marathon on record.
In August this year my best figure for a 10k was 72 minutes, 11 1/2 minute miling. Now in October, I did Southend 10k in just over 60 minutes, just over 9.5 minute miling. That improvement came from running with the club on Tuesday, personal trainer Thursday, 1 jog over the weekend, and 1hr badminton on a Monday.

Hope that helps ?

MM2

PS: How long will it take me to go from 9.5 min miling to 8?

Mike Mason · #7 Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 1055 Location: Hockley

JimmyBilly's Daddy - whatever you do don't rush into things or you will get crocked that is a certainty. I will post a seperate training thread on low heart rate aerobic training. Build base endurance before starting anything fancy. oh and another lesson learned painfully - learn to stretch!

MM2 - your reply takes the biscuit................it is a caring and intelligent response.......who wrote it for you?

it certainly takes the biscuit...

Rgds

MM1
_________________
'sometimes I am running so fast it appears that rocks and trees are standing still......' 'I may be slow, but you are ugly and I can train harder.' '90% is mental, the other half is physical'it's going to get a lot worse, before it gets worse'.

Karl C · Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:36 am Post subject:

Guys, glad to hear that our Stacy is inspirational !

As MM1 says, take it slow. Speed doesn't come overnight, and the time it will take for you to get to your goal pace will have many external factors. The main ones being
1. How much time do you have to train ?
2. How committed are you to do speed work ?
3. How committed are you to follow a training plan with long runs, and speed sessions ?

Speed is the quickness of movement of a limb, whether this is the legs of a runner or the arm of the shot putter. Speed is an integral part of every sport and can be expressed as any one of, or combination of, the following: maximum speed, elastic strength (power) and speed endurance.

Speed is influenced by the athlete's mobility, special strength, strength endurance and technique.

Flexibility and a correct warm up will affect stride length and frequency (strike rate).

The development of speed is highly specific and to achieve it we should ensure that:

Flexibility is developed and maintained all year round
Strength and speed are developed in parallel
Skill development (technique) is pre-learned, rehearsed and perfected before it is done at high speed levels
Speed training is performed by using high velocity for brief intervals.

It is important to remember that the improvement of running speed is a complex process that is controlled by the brain and nervous system. In order for a runner to move more quickly, the leg muscles of course have to contract more quickly, but the brain and nervous systems have to learn to control these faster movements efficiently. If you maintain some form of speed training throughout the year, your muscles and nervous system do not lose the feel of moving fast and the brain will not have to re-learn the proper control patterns at a later date.

In the training week, speed work should be carried out after a period of rest or light training. In a training session, speed work should be conducted after the warm up and any other training should be of a low intensity.

Trying putting "Training for Speed" into your search engine and read up.

Also, the club has many U.K. Athletics Trained Coaches and also a wealth of experienced runners.....

use them, talk to them and learn from them...

http://www.benfleetrunningclub.com/coaches.htm

have fun, and remember the quickest way to injury is doing too much, too soon, too fast !

Karl

(U.K. Athletics Level 1 Coach and 7:15 min/miler and getting slower, but running further !)

Karl C · Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:41 am Post subject:

"How many joys are crushed under foot because people look up at the sky and disregard what is at their feet?"

Catharina Elisabetha Goethe

mikemoreton · Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:31 am Post subject:

MM1,

I wrote that response all by my self, thank you very much. Still havent heard from PatM though....What have you done to him?

regards

MM2

Graham · #3 Joined: 11 May 2006 Posts: 395

Take it slow......dont do too much......risk of injury.......all good advice but.....(playing Devil's advocate a bit) move up a group and hang on to them. Step out your comfort zone and push yourself, get your heart pumping and your lungs burning. Embrace the pain! Afterall the only way to run faster is to run faster. Then you cool down properly & stretch and catch your breath and chat with your mates over a cup of Clive's char.

I'm not a coach mind!!! And you do need to listen to your bodies aches & pains, especially as you've only been running for a relatively short time. I'm just drawing on personal experience of when I joined BRC as an OK recreational runner who was in awe of the likes of Jez, Toddy, Meady et all. It took a couple of years but it was being competitive in training that really improved my times.

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

Thanks for those comments chaps.

I guess I'm fishing for some thoughts on what improvement is possible and what is a sensible timescale to achieve it.

To that end I'm probably most in tune with Graham at the moment, trying to pick out faster runners and stick with them for as long as possible on the club runs, pushing myself fairly hard on the intervals.

I'll have to see where that takes me...hopefully to a new state of euphoria, not the physio !

Must make more time for stretching (MM1 comment noted and agreed with !). MM2 - brilliant stuff, we'll compare our progress to our next goals shall we ?? Thanks for that info Karl.

Cheers
Steve

mikey · Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:31 pm Post subject:

Hi Jimmy

6 minuet mileing is seriously fast

Reading the comments above, I’d agree with most of them

At the end of the day there are 3 factors which will determine your ultimate running speed

1. Natural Ability
2. Desire to train
3. Time available to train

Eventually you will reach the limit on one of these, and you would have reached your full potential.

Think you shouldn’t be looking months or possibly years into the future, but should instead be thinking about today.

If you’re currently running at 8 minutes per mile, you need to be working towards 7:45

When you get there re-asses Ability / Desire & Time to see if you can push onto 7:30 mileing, and so on.

Keep this going until you reach your limit

Bear in mind the closer you get to your ultimate pace, you will find that large increases in training load will result in minor improvements to speed

Time is usually the limiting factor !!!

Finally, don’t under estimate the mental strength required to hang onto a fast pace

At the end of the day it could well be your mind that determines how fast you run !!

mikemoreton · Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject:

OR:

As quoted in the echo by the 82 year old 'follow a nice bum'

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

Mike Mason · #7 Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 1055 Location: Hockley

Steve this was a very good post subject. I wanted to mention something else and much as it pains me Mikey already did. The 2 elements - genetics and mind. There is not much one can do about the former- yes you can make improvements in Vo2 with training etc etc but you will never be a world class elite.

Working on the mental side can pay major dividends though. But beware the body and genetics of a mid/back of the packer and the mind/aspiration of a Kenyan elite runner..................you need to find the balance and whatever happens....just enjoy your running.

rgds

Mike going back into deep depression....
_________________
'sometimes I am running so fast it appears that rocks and trees are standing still......' 'I may be slow, but you are ugly and I can train harder.' '90% is mental, the other half is physical'it's going to get a lot worse, before it gets worse'.

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

Karl C · Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject:

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

erasedcitizen · #1 Joined: 21 May 2006 Posts: 79 Location: Benfleet

Haha I knew you someone was right behind us on vic hill!! Good effort!

It's so much longer than I remember! Paul Todd was caning the recoveries, almost was a tempo run! Must admit I was struggling a bit!

I really recommend tempo runs to improve your fitness and top sustainable speed

. At least one every 10 days ( or a race).

Hope you managed to get your jacket back!

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

Pammie · #3 Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 385

I've been reading this thread with interest. I want to get back to where you are now, which was 2 years ago. Think patience has something to do with it, consistent training and staying healthy
Today was probably a bad run a bad day tomorrow will be better, if you tell yourself that it will be whatever you tell yourself you'll be right.
Maybe if you feel like stopping again pretend that guy in front of you sprinting into the distance, pretend he has your jacket and keys, then WHEN you catch him it is the next guy.
_________________
I'll put something interesting here when i've thought of something, in the meantime heres some music.

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

Cheers Pammie,

I had targets today, and I was doing exactly what I planned to do, it just feels like a good run gone bad, yet having recovered it is easy to say that I can't work out why the position I was in wasn't enough motivation to keep me going - perhaps the harsh reality is I'm not fit enough to be where I want to be yet. But on the positive side, I am gaining understanding of how to get there, it might just hurt a lot !

Like the comment about the keys...might try that one on Tuesday !

I hope you get back to where you want to be....

Cheers
Steve

Steffan · #4 Joined: 11 May 2006 Posts: 588 Location: Basildon

Steve,
Keep pushing straight ahead mate, the best thing I can come up with is to run fast you've got to run fast (I'm not running fast.....yet).
On club nights do the same as you did last Tuesday, go off with your group and when someone comes past you try to hang on to them, the speed will come. Just keep running and enjoying it.
Get one of the club coaches to write you up a monthly training plan and listen to the words in this song!

Rage of Discipline by Righteous Jams. 2004

Heart on his sleeve he's got everything to prove
Driven by uneasiness his anger is fuel
His mindset wont accept these other possible outcomes
You can't throw him off balance

Rage of discipline he will enter into
He shut out your negativity and disregarded you
His mindset wont accept these other possible outcomes
He can't give you what he's got.
Everything to prove!

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

Thanks Steffan, hope you had a good run, I was so pooped at the end I had to find some space to recover when you were all chatting, don't know much about how everyone else did...if you haven't hit fast yet, we're all in trouble !

I'm liking those words, especially the anger/fuel concept....I'll work on that

!

Cheers

Stevie · #3 Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 452 Location: Benfleet

Steve,

I was in a similar position to you on Sunday; I wanted to run hard as I too have been trying to increase my speed recently.
I ended up stopping around 3 times on Sunday partly down to the fact it felt like my lungs were going to explode, but its my mental strength that lets me down, if you struggle with the pace try not to stop but just slow the pace down for abit.

Steff's right try and get one of the coaches to write you up a monthly training plan as this is where I started to notice a huge difference in my speed as I was running more than 3 times a week and it didnt take long to notice the increase in pace.
The Interval sessions at John Burrows on Saturdays will help your speed aswell, i found it best to do more than one effort session a week to be able to run quicker.

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

Steve,

Thanks, knowing that someone of your standard had to stop is actually encouraging to hear - lack of mental strength or just good sense to stop rather than die (over-exaggeration I'm sure) ??!! I've questioned it a few times today.

Anyway, results are in, great run Steffan, under 28 mins on that course, pretty darn good !

I did 34.48 - funny how that 12 seconds under 35 makes me feel that bit more satisfied, although when I first stopped I was only about 50 yards behind Charlotte who finished in 32.18. That's how pear shaped my run went !

Thanks to everyone who is participating in my therapy thread, it's not meant to be self-centred, hopefully it's a generally interesting examination of the running psyche.......or not

Steffan · #4 Joined: 11 May 2006 Posts: 588 Location: Basildon

Just seen the results.
3 little seconds behind the 3rd place runner!
Gutted!
Another 200 mtrs and I could have got him!!!
Ha!
:blackeye:

Stevie · #3 Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 452 Location: Benfleet

I bet you're gutted Steff, if you had put in a sprint finish like me then you would have caught that guy in front of you :happy7:

Karl C · Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:32 am Post subject:

Initial results.....well done everyone.

Pos. No. Time First Name Family Name Cat

4 375 00:27:54 Stefan Cohen M
7 372 00:29:06 Stuart Watson M
9 345 00:29:41 Ian Pike M
14 374 00:30:50 Steve Dear M
20 332 00:31:46 Peter Adeleke MV
21 341 00:31:47 Catherine Stint FV
26 373 00:32:18 Charlotte Peppiatt F
40 312 00:34:48 Steve Higgins MV
62 342 00:40:35 Susan Ward FV

http://phoenixstriders.hostinguk.com/

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

Sharron Garrard was somewhere between Charlotte and me too, but I think she was quicker than the time for 38th which has a question mark.
The last 250 metres or so was a lovely straight downhill to the finish line and I managed to re-overtake 2 chaps who passed me walking up the last hill...the other one just held me off....I think he heard my elephant feet thudding into the tarmac as I "sprinted" to the finish.

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

Family commitment last Thursday and work committment tonight - back this Thursday when I will no doubt look vainly at the spot where I left my jacket and continue to wonder how come it hasn't been returned yet.

Just thought I'd keep this personal saga on the agenda.....

Stevie · #3 Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 452 Location: Benfleet

Steve,

Was the Jacket left there on a Tuesday or Thursday, it must have been collected by somebody else who uses that building, have you tried to find out who uses it between Tuesday - Thursday and Thursday - Tuesday ?

Does seem very odd that it hasnt been returned :angry1:

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

It was 3 weeks ago on a Tuesday that I left my light blue jacket, along with keys in the pocket, on the far right hand side of the long desk just by the entrance and proceeded to knacker myself doing the ballbreaker.

When i returned, no jacket....so it was definitely taken by someone who was there on that Tuesday night sometime between 7.30 and 8.30 ish when I got back.

It really is frustrating, frankly I don't care about the jacket (paying my £23 for a nice new Benfleet one tomorrow) but I'm getting to the point that I have to seriously consider getting my house locks changed and the same for the car....stupid I know, but is it worth the risk.

Right...last word on it, I'm more bored than anywhere else on that subject - back to trying to run fast, the hard work starts now, looking forward to the challenge, watch out you fasties !

Stevie · #3 Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 452 Location: Benfleet

You sound Motivated Steve, so it wont be long till i see you running past me :thumbup:

Not sure who you normally run with but try tagging along with a faster group tomorrow, like you say the hard work starts now

mikemoreton · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:27 pm Post subject:

Ok i have missed 3 weeks now, can someone motivate me to come back next Tuesday 6th November? Need to be broken back in gently. lol.
I wont keep up with Steve, but i do want to keep up the running.

MM2

Karl C · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:35 pm Post subject:

Mike, we will be dodging the stray fireworks, so that will motivate you to run quicker...does Jez know you are slacking..?!

mikemoreton · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject:

Shush, dont tell Jez.
Oh I forgot, I dont see him on Thursdays anymore

Jez · #2 Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 291 Location: Eastwood

If you dont get down the club on tuesday, and there will be a few witnesses, i will be forced to bring round my instruments of torture and put you through it, Dont Slack now having done so much hard work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...Hows that for motivation??

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

[quote="Stevie"]You sound Motivated Steve, so it wont be long till i see you running past me :thumbup: quote]

I think the timescale for this might be in the region of "never" but I will persist this winter and take it from there...thinking if I do get a coach to write me a training plan I might avoid Jez....

mikemoreton · Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:25 pm Post subject:

JimmyBilly's Daddy: Jez trained me from sofa loafer to what i am now (10min miler, and proud) in 1 year.

Jez: I will be going on Tuesday as I liked the competiveness of the Good Bad and Ugly. It makes you want to run and not slack so as to help your team.

See you both on Tuesday?

(I am the one with mosquito bitten legs)

MM2

Jez · #2 Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 291 Location: Eastwood

(I am the one with mosquito bitten legs) MM2

LOL, hope your not going for the sympathy vote ,2 weeks in the caribean must have been hell!!!

mikemoreton · Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject:

Jez, the first 24 hours from Arriving in Miami were, when Wife and her friend were not booked on the connecting flight. (My fault apparantly) then when about to get my boarding pass at the gate while the 2 others were on stand by, i was told that the luggage was in the hall waiting to be picked up and re checked in on the connecting flight. Virgins actual fault, but I got the blame. We all managed to get on the same flight to San Juan though.......Happy days............or so I thought. 6 of the 9 cases didnt arrive. long story, but suffice to say that was my fault too. ANyhow at 5am I am back in San Juan airport at the lost luggage counter to retrieve al the cases, or so I thought. Only 5 of the 6 were there, the other had been delivered to the hotel. Phew!!! Or so I thought. The rotters had delivered it to a different hotel. Was that my fault? Yep, it sure was. Anyhow, by 9am we had all the cases in the correct hotel.
1 Diamond ring made the hassle all worth while and i was forgiven,
Happy 50th Birthday wife!!
Cant wait for the next holiday. ( I am not going to book it, so nothing can be my fault)

See you tuesday, I can tel you the other funny incidents

MM2

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

Saw the last couple of miles of Paula Radcliffe's marathon win yesterday, and in subsequent interview she revealed she kept repeating "I love you Isla" to keep her rhythm.

Very similar to my "Oy come back with my jacket" mantra that I employed last Thursday (a combination of suggestions from Pammie and Steffan) with slightly less success.

Another good one for distracting the mental and physical fatigue though...

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

Rhythm mantras don't work.

What does work is knowing the running route so that when the people who you're starting to get tailed off from go the wrong way, you can give yourself 10 seconds start before randomly shouting "other way" - worked for me last night.

Still laughing about the Good Bad & Ugly, looked like something out of Scooby Doo with people going right, and then back left and then standing around clueless.....can't wait till the repeat in January.

What with people stumbling along and occasionally stacking it in some style along the dimly lit streets, rarely a dull moment with this running club !

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

Right....let me see if I can get this thread up to 1,000 views plus, and justify another post from me by asking what I should do in my forthcoming race on Sunday (Chelmsford 10k).

I've got a number of plans:

a) Stick with Steffan for as long as I can and drag my aching body the remaining 9.9k to the finish.

b) Go off faster than I know I can maintain, hope that gets me at least 7k before I have to stop, and jog the rest before collapsing dramatically into a crumpled heap on the lounge floor when I get home.

c) Go off at a pace that I can probably maintain, give or take, and have a reasonable but potentially unsatisfactory feeling of wellbeing at the end.

d) Virtually jog it and post a time so that I can get valuable merit points in the table for 2008.

Thoughts and/or any other tactics that you think I should employ will be gratefully received.

Karl C · Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:27 pm Post subject:

wake up Sunday morning and see how you feel.

Karl C · Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:28 pm Post subject:

then go back to bed

mikemoreton · Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject:

Well if you want my bit:

I wanted to get a 1 hour 10k at southend, so split each kilometre to 6 minutes each. I was told to go off easy and then up the ante at 6k through to 9k or the end. I didnt listen. I shot off the first k at 5 1/2 minutes, so i thought i could have time in the bank so to speak. 2nd K i did in 5 3/4 mins. better. Then 3 - 9k i kept at about 6 mins each, but couldnt sustain it. i was 60mins 45 seconds. Close though, considering my previous best was 72mins 11s.
My Moral of the story: Go at your own steady pace, or just above, then judge it as you go towards the end on how much you have left to give it your all.

May or may not work, but i am new to this running lark.

MM2

Steffan · #4 Joined: 11 May 2006 Posts: 588 Location: Basildon

Try this.

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/rununiv/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm

JBD · #3 Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 317

Cheers Steff, that is a very cool calculator....i chucked in my best 1000m time for tuesday but it doesn't give me the 10k time I want so i'm going to nip back over there and improve it a bit.....

But seriously, I'm just going to run hard and enjoy it....another experience on the road to competent running !

oops...being dragged off by jimmy....laters

Stevie · #3 Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 452 Location: Benfleet

I wouldnt go for your option d) as I'm after the Merit table next year - hehehe

I wouldnt go off to hard at the start, its taken me 2 years to learn not to go off too fast even though people told me not too, I always find this difficult to do in a race but you have to ignore everybody else and run your own race.
What I've done recently on club runs is start at quite an easy pace then increase the pace into the run and its works for me 100%, and I get round quicker than if I went off hard.

The danger with these shorter races is to get dragged along at the start too quickly and blow-up half way round, I've been there too many times.

I'd have a good warm up before the race on Sunday too.

Hope you have you good race but my advice is dont go off too fast

Jez · #2 Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 291 Location: Eastwood

The one thing a lot of runners dont seem to do is train for fast starts. You can start fast , if you ve trained your body to cope with it.How about incorperating a session where your first effort, say 800m is faster than race pace, the rest of the session try to hit race pace on each effort, this sesion works best with a relatively short recovery less than half the time it takes you to run the 800mIts no good running 7 min efforts in training then hoping your going to run 5 min 45 s in a race.With all the will in the world it aint going to happen.But running and racing is all trial and error nd varies from runner to runner as Steve says its taken him 2 years to start slower.Why not pick one race where you try something different and see if it works for you regardless of where you finish or how long it takes.That said good luck!